I think the attempts to nerf/balance the Raider finally broke it...
The Raider ultimate spell fails to deal any damage (either to creeps or to hero tanks). No damage dealt for either early recall or waiting for the countdown to reach 0 to auto tele back. See Replay attached starting at 22 minutes, 25 min, 26:50, 28:00, etc.
At 36:45 i cant even kill a lone ballista after tanking damage from an airship that ran away from me... I should have tried with no guns carried to verify but i didn't think to do that till just now.
On a side note, even if it did work correctly, the Raider Ulti is one of the worst out of all the tanks.. lvl 1 deals 1200dmg SPLIT amongst ALL targets in range??? assuming 2 enemy creeps with enemy hero tank, thats 400dmg per target...What happens if you want to kill just creeps, a single lane wave...that's 1200dmg/5 targets= 120 dmg per target MAX. Don't even try middle lane creeps, you wont make a dent, for an ultimate spell on a 1.8k tank, im better off getting tinker and doing more dmg with grenade launcher.... The cheaper light tank and heli ultimate deals 800 dmg base to ALL targets affected....Light tank has larger AoE and heli has longer cast range than the mere 750 AoE on the Raider....
Either way Raider becomes outgunned hella fast since you without an effective way to deal damage you need poison or other high dmg gun, i found it hard to save for earth robot even with leaver gold.... Nerfed Heal spell and other raider spells i can deal with, but nerfing the ultimate makes it barely better than tinker....at least you can farm with tinker, buff towers and teleport away from danger....If your not fed with raider, you are screwed long-term, but thats just my opinion.
2012-07-26, 02:23:16 (This post was last modified: 2012-07-26, 02:24:48 by Saiyuki.)
(2012-07-26, 01:44:50)gzusfr33k Wrote: I think the attempts to nerf/balance the Raider finally broke it...
keep cool.. other than that, thanks for (not) participating in the beta, taking part of the discussions... gonna check the replay later...
(2012-07-26, 01:44:50)gzusfr33k Wrote: (...) No damage dealt for either early recall or waiting for the countdown to reach 0 to auto tele back. (...)
if you abort the ultimate early by recalling the raider it won't deal any damage anymore as stated in the changelog
(2012-07-26, 01:44:50)gzusfr33k Wrote: (...) lvl 1 deals 1200dmg SPLIT amongst ALL targets in range??? assuming 2 enemy creeps with enemy hero tank, thats 400dmg per target...
so far so good... but...
(2012-07-26, 01:44:50)gzusfr33k Wrote: What happens if you want to kill just creeps, a single lane wave...that's 1200dmg/5 targets= 120 dmg per target MAX.
1200 damage / 5 targets = 240 damage per target
(2012-07-26, 01:44:50)gzusfr33k Wrote: Don't even try middle lane creeps, you wont make a dent, for an ultimate spell on a 1.8k tank, im better off getting tinker and doing more dmg with grenade launcher.... The cheaper light tank and heli ultimate deals 800 dmg base to ALL targets affected....Light tank has larger AoE and heli has longer cast range than the mere 750 AoE on the Raider....
did you already figure out that you are able to use the other raider skills at the same time? reflecting damage, dealing additional damage or getting a good percentage of heal back?
(2012-07-26, 01:44:50)gzusfr33k Wrote: Either way Raider becomes outgunned hella fast since you without an effective way to deal damage you need poison or other high dmg gun, i found it hard to save for earth robot even with leaver gold.... Nerfed Heal spell and other raider spells i can deal with, but nerfing the ultimate makes it barely better than tinker....at least you can farm with tinker, buff towers and teleport away from danger....If your not fed with raider, you are screwed long-term, but thats just my opinion.
thanks for your feedback even if, as already mentioned, it's quite late now. maybe the raider might get another update on the next version but i highly doubt it will be buffed.
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(2012-07-26, 01:44:50)gzusfr33k Wrote: I think the attempts to nerf/balance the Raider finally broke it..
That's the exact same thing I thought when reading the changelog. No damage when aborting the ulti? And the worst of all: damage split between targets??? No other tank has such a bad scaling ulti. Very sad.
Well, you guys (= the community as a whole) had it coming, with the constant whining about this tank. But like before, I believe you tend to overreact. The damage isn't the only thing the ulti does.
The Raider has been compared to Infernals and Titans in terms of strength and now you mean to tell me, the Raider isn't even worth the 1850 gold you pay for him? Of course he is not as strong as before, but that was the whole point. He still is very mobile with his ultimate, he is still able to tank a lot of damage and he is still able to constantly harass his enemies.
The ultimate has still a high potential damage, but not in any given situation and like I said, the damage is not the whole point of the ultimate. It'll stay that way for now (= a few months). The Raider had way too many changes as it is, I won't attempt to alter him any further in the near future. Let him settle down into the given tank pool and see how he performs with all the changes that have been made.
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(2012-07-26, 13:05:51)Exodus Wrote: Well, you guys (= the community as a whole) had it coming, with the constant whining about this tank. But like before, I believe you tend to overreact. The damage isn't the only thing the ulti does.
The Raider has been compared to Infernals and Titans in terms of strength and now you mean to tell me, the Raider isn't even worth the 1850 gold you pay for him? Of course he is not as strong as before, but that was the whole point. He still is very mobile with his ultimate, he is still able to tank a lot of damage and he is still able to constantly harass his enemies.
The ultimate has still a high potential damage, but not in any given situation and like I said, the damage is not the whole point of the ultimate. It'll stay that way for now (= a few months). The Raider had way too many changes as it is, I won't attempt to alter him any further in the near future. Let him settle down into the given tank pool and see how he performs with all the changes that have been made.
definitely agree this tank is strong when played well and i think some use teleport expecting a kill or not to die please realize this tank is still awesome and has to spells that work well together Exo totally correct on
Cat power < needs to be implemented into bt
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Yeah, now that i look back i overreacted a bit. I apologize. Last time i played Btanks was ver 8.74 i think. So the change in the Raider skills was a bit of a shock and i dont do math well in my head when im in a rush typing...
It's Just that the Raider skin is badass, and sometimes i want to play raider just cuz it looks cool...so whoever made that skin, kudos.
Maybe for future version, some ideas to revamp the Raider to make use of all those Rocket pods/guns on the Raider skin...
1. Primary Spell: leave as is, but change name to Infrared Marker or Laser Designator. It identifies weak points in enemy armor, allowing allies/tanks to deal additional damage.
2. Secondary Spell: leave as is, or buff heal up to 80% for lvl 5, but causes speed to slow by say ~10 or 15 per level (-50 to -75 speed for lvl 5). The heal spell makes the Raider a good tank, and like the earth bot, speed should suffer. Call it a drain on the engines to activate memory alloy...
3. Tertiary Spell: Keep as is, but adds temporary speed boost as well similar to medivac, but scales like spell above, at +10-15 speed per level, or X%. Say it supercharges the engines and polarizes/electrifies the hull plating of the tank.
4. Ultimate Spell: Remove the teleport. Since this seems to be the main reason to why people complain about the raider, the tele/recall/damage. Instead make it an AoE spell similar to the Titan's primary Spell, that uses a mass of Swarm Rockets effect to bathe an small area in rockets. say 1000 cast range, 500AoE, 900 dmg lvl 1 that would scale to 1700 dmg for lvl 5. Pure damage and no stun, or could reduce damage and make it ~.5-1sec second stun if that's not enough. Call it a Rocket Barrage spell or something.
With this setup, you can make your chopper fast with reflective armor to keep up with helis, medi, air ship, etc., or slow to tank damage with heal, or a hybrid of both for same speed. Since this setup loses teleport, the Reflective armor spell should be able to boost its speed to 522 with upgraded speed boost/pack, similar to how the medivac does, but only with reflective at lvl 4 or 5, to keep melee range guns viable.
The speed buffs/debuffs would force people to reconsider rushing the heal spell to lvl 3 or 4 to tank so much damage early game when combined with steel/gold hull.
Cons: without the teleport, Raider is more of a mid-range tank rather than close range, although I'm sure some could still make it work. Only other relocation tanks early on are shredder, grav, and earth...so those who like jumping/teleporting are limited in choice...
Just an idea to keep the tank true to its awesome skin. Take it or leave it, my 2 cents, however asinine or dumb it is.
2012-07-26, 17:16:03 (This post was last modified: 2012-07-26, 17:35:29 by Crag_Hack.)
in my opinion the tank is good balance now and the only misstake is still the ulti
ofc the dmg isnt all but what helps the tp on a early tank if u dont get hp and much dps
and there is the problem in my mind, bc of the low money if u start with raider u only could buy a basic, a bow or a bonfire, so u wouldnt get a normal farm or cant attack the enemies (and if ur in mid the others will get undercreeping and u cant help, bc of bow) i know it simular to the demolisher but i think the demo has better creeping and killing skills like q for ground and w for ground, air and still creeping
the problem there are two ways for raider:
first u random or pick it, so it happens what i write u got no good farm, so u dont will have much dps or enough hp if u are lvl 10
second u start as another tank like scout and get much money and change to raider later then ofc it will be a good tank, but shouldnt u have the same or equal chances to play the tank if u start with it
so i think the ulti should do less dmg, but the dmg then is only splitted by enemy tanks and not hitting creeps, so u can use it easier to kill with it and on the other side u can help ur mates easy with dmg sharing if enemies raider use ulti
but i think exo is right for the first we should look how it works, and many ppl will try it and some will find good tactics to use the raider in 8.76
Since i first time saw (and understood) how Raider works my first opinion (and after many chats with other ppl - in opinion of many others) this tank's skills can be left as they are but increase tank price to 10-12k, dmg of q skill and tank's HP. Then imo raider's skills and potential would fit to it's price and most of all the pleasure from playing Raider (in his current shape) won't be taken away.
